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For Goldberg (and anyone else interested)
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:30 am    Post subject: For Goldberg (and anyone else interested) Reply with quote

http://www.lisztworks.com/works/S140.shtml

Just 5 to go (anyone free to take a few hehe). Sorry about the netscape unfriendliness at the moment, I'm working on getting the menu to actually not disappear altogether in netscape.
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy...You're not joking?? *swears*

I'm listening to this RIGHT NOW!!
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha no it's not april fool's. Well maybe my playing is but not the recording Wink
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: For Goldberg (and anyone else interested) Reply with quote

Helling wrote:
Just 5 to go (anyone free to take a few hehe).


Sure, I'll take no. 2 off your back; you just worry 'bout those two others in E major! Wink I'll bet you're actually going to do La Campanella next, right? If I ever finish no. 2, that is, before I die, I'll probably do no. 6...

Anyway, about the recording, that is killerrrr (if anyone here has ever tried this piece, you KNOW how profoundly difficult it actually is; if not, I recommend you try it yourself before and after listening to this). It sounds like those scales you kept on talking about ended up getting the better of you, though (I'm not saying I blame you, though, by that point in the piece, doing double octaves and double sixths is probably not the easiest thing in the world, heh), but all in all a very acceptable job, especially considering the limited time you've had to practice. I particularly enjoyed the e minor section (those jumps are insane), the repeat of the them after it, and then most of that section afterwards, with the exception of those damn scales. And I thought the ending was great, personally (as far as the music goes, I love the effect, no matter how simple it is, with the melody coming in and out of those repeated octaves; I wish Liszt would have allowed that to carry on longer).

After exhausting practice on my own 1st-ed PE today, I have determined, undoubtably, that Liszt WAS, in fact, an absolute madman. Especially earlier in his life...Good Lord...

Congrats on completing the piece, mate, it sounds great. I'm so glad to finally hear it! (actually, it's the first time I've heard the piece all the way through...)
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will probably rerecord it again soon sometime, since this was a bit of a spur of the moment thing (but I need to take a break from it for a while for sure - i practiced it for almost 2 weeks and I get less and less patient with pieces as I get older).

About the scales though, not to criticise your criticism (hehe) but I would like to know exactly what you mean with them so maybe I can revise my approach in some way. In fact, Howard doesn't play them much faster or more evenly than this, and I do have trouble making the sixth any faster as well (though I do keep down the speed of the octave ones in order to make it symmetrical with the sixths). One does get a bit let down by them after hearing the second version double glissandi - here he did manage to make things rather more effective and easier at the same time.

In fact that part didn't bother me as much as the staccatto ending where I would go faster if I had the interpretative choice (but unfortunately, my skill with this piece is not good enough to reproduce how it sounds in my head).


Last edited by Helling on Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, believe me, I think your scales are just fine considering their incredible demands. As far as my comment, I wasn't concerned with the speed as much as I was about the evenness; I have *no* idea what you could do to improve that, though, as the scales are extremely awkward, obviously.

It does seem like you slow down a little towards the end of the e minor section as well--was that intentional? I actually think it sounds good, not so much because you slow down but because you keep it at an even pace throughout the section. I'm disappointed by pianists who tear through that part and disregard that really cool melody.

In this version, I have to say the awkwardness of those jumps (in the same section) are quite worth it for the musical effect they have on the piece. I hadn't realised until I heard this recording what those octaves really sounded like, and now I see they really do add quite a lot to the part, even if meanwhile the pianist is sweating to keep them in time and get back for the next set.
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe yeah but it one could debate whether some short high notes every now and then really merit having to completely change your hand positions every half a second. The second version completely does away with these, and shares the melody between the thumbs I think (not sure - I didnt play that one in long). As a side note, Howard's recording of this same piece (also first version, like mine here) manages to make this section unbelievably boring and slow. Sometimes I don't get it with him, since obviously his technique is of very high level.

As far as the scales, I tried many ways to play them and I am not REALLY happy with them myself - I just resigned myself to the fact that maybe they are clumsily written as far as effect and that it can't be done much better (particularly since I heard recordings which I cannot say have changed this perception). Nonetheless, maybe the best interpretation - which would alter this view - is still not in existence. But the case with the scales could be similar to the situation with the second (hardest) version of the 8th transcendental etude which even Howard admitted he could not make any real sense of on a modern piano. Many of Liszt's early versions are based on a much lighter action than that of the pianos of today. The fact that I start slow with the scales and speed up a bit towards the middle is an interpretative choice though (to go along with the notated crescendo) so I could do that differently but I think that would make them sound more boring.


The slowdown at the final part of the e minor section is partly intentional so the melody shines through (it's one of those nice and typical paganini downward modulating melodies that he often - maybe too often - made use of). On the other hand, the jumps and awkward positions become more hideously difficult the further along the e minor section you get (and eventually the high notes arent octaves but chords that are widely spaced - as you probably know). Hehe people who tear through this should play the first version before going back to the second, then it would teach them how to not speed through it. Wink


Last edited by Helling on Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah.....cor, the piece is a bloody mammoth, I'll give you that. And yet it's got such a charming, almost peaceful melody (the main part at least).

My ego first told me that I'm up to the task of playing those scales better than anyone else yet (save for Liszt, I suppose), but now the reality that I'm a rubbish piano player is kicking in...maybe in a few years, haha.

*with childish enthusiasm* Hey, Erik, once we finish recording these PEs, why don't we go on to the 2nd version TE's? Huh? Whaddya say?
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not, let's start with transcendental etude no 10 in its second version, with that wonderful middle section that has both hands playing in different beats. Wink

Not sure if I feel like more paganini etudes right now actually, but if I do any it's probably no. 3 first version like you say, or possibly no. 1. I think no. 6 is a bit boring now with all the other variations on it by other composers. Sometimes I feel I should spend my time on something profound like Liszt's genuinely "serious" works since I'm not really a showpieceish....person.
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Goldberg
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Age: 17
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figure that since I still have my youth--sort of--I can get by with playing some of his less...uh...scholarly additions to the piano repertoire, heh. So I have roughly until I'm about 30 or so to do those TE's, PE's, and whatever other E he did...

As far as the bore-osity of No. 6, I actually agree with you mostly (though I like Liszt's version better than, say, Rach's or Brahms', though the latter two are more epic), but I think it would be a technically valuable exercise and any audience would appreciate it anyway. I do plan on, before I die, playing the original 4th etudes, though; and, for that matter, at least two of the 2nd TE's.

I imagine the more time spent with these insane pieces, the more boring everything else becomes....living life on the edge, I tell ya! Or at least playing piano that way...
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goldberg wrote:
I figure that since I still have my youth--sort of--I can get by with playing some of his less...uh...scholarly additions to the piano repertoire, heh. So I have roughly until I'm about 30 or so to do those TE's, PE's, and whatever other E he did...


Yeah rub it in Goldberg. Anyway, I guess I could go for the first version of no. 4 just to act silly a bit.
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, like you're having a mid-life crisis or something and you have to return to your youthful foolishness.....

Hey, you said rub it in! Sorry! Wink
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw--on a serious note, I just finished playing through a bit of the parts we've talked about. For those inverted-chord scales, what fingering do you use?
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Helling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goldberg wrote:
Btw--on a serious note, I just finished playing through a bit of the parts we've talked about. For those inverted-chord scales, what fingering do you use?


right 1 2 5
left 5 3 1
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Goldberg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No way! Well from *my* perspective (and, don't take this *too* seriously I guess, because I know that every pianist and hand is different), I think I've found the problem. Tell me you've at least tried to play it with

(going top to bottom)

Right: 5 3 2
Left: 2 4 5 (or maybe 1 2 4)

I just can't see how you'd be able to move your right thumb very quickly and accurately. Personally, if I use 5 3 2 for the right hand, I hardly have any problem at all nailing those chord-scales, because the fingering fits so nicely, it doesn't change (of course) and all it takes is a quick wrist action, which actually kind of works itself in this case.

The left hand, I admit, is always going to be a little troublesome. In that case, I wouldn't mind leading off with the thumb, but I'd try it first with the 2nd finger in the lead. It gives you more of a spread in the "less spreadable" fingers (heh...that is to say, as you know, there's more room for error in a stretch between 1 and 5 than between 2 and 4, or 2 and 5) which results in a certain degree of stability. Then all you have to do is synchronise them well enough.

Or did you try all that and I'm just saying this like a loser?
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