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Some Bach and Brahms

 
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Thracozaag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:47 am    Post subject: Some Bach and Brahms Reply with quote

http://chopinforum.com/~thracozaag/Brahms2nd(4th).mp3

http://chopinforum.com/~thracozaag/BachEnglishSuite2(Bouree1).mp3

http://chopinforum.com/~thracozaag/BachEnglishSuite2(Bouree2).mp3

http://chopinforum.com/~thracozaag/BachEnglishSuite2(Gigue).mp3

koji (STSD)
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TheRach
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach is wonderful. I haven't heard the Brahms yet though.
What can I say? 100. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Words are too cumbersome.
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Sohcahtoa
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a matter of personal preference, I thought you played the first Bouree and the Gigue (which I love and plan on learning) a bit too fast. If I had your technique and decided to play them at that speed, I would use even less pedal to get a Gould-type sound, so you can really hear the wonderful finger articulation. In other words, if you insist on using that much pedal (which really wasn't all that much), I think it's best to just slow down to bring out the beauty of the piece. It sounded impressive, but not stunning like Gould or Perahia.

There is a very strict rhythm in all Bach's piano works that both of the two pianists I mentioned follow religiously - the occasional lag or unusual accent here or there, however minute, can throw off the remarkable effect the pieces can have. It's a matter of preference, but I prefer absolute adherence to the strict rhythm in Bach keyboard pieces.

You have the technique and all the capability, man, I just think it was a tad superficial. I wouldn't be comparing you to Gould or Perahia unless you were on such an unbelievable technical level!

Your Brahms is quite exciting. Fantastic stuff.

I rated 99 on the forum level.

I'd say compared to the Bach greats yours ranks somewhere at around 80-85. I'd have to hear your entire Brahms 2nd, to know if comes close to Gilels-Jochum/Reiner (both magnificent and untouchable imho).

BTW: The recording quality isn't commensurate with your talent. It really doesn't do your interpretation justice.
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Thracozaag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sohcahtoa wrote:
As a matter of personal preference, I thought you played the first Bouree and the Gigue (which I love and plan on learning) a bit too fast. If I had your technique and decided to play them at that speed, I would use even less pedal to get a Gould-type sound, so you can really hear the wonderful finger articulation. In other words, if you insist on using that much pedal (which really wasn't all that much), I think it's best to just slow down to bring out the beauty of the piece. It sounded impressive, but not stunning like Gould or Perahia.

There is a very strict rhythm in all Bach's piano works that both of the two pianists I mentioned follow religiously - the occasional lag or unusual accent here or there, however minute, can throw off the remarkable effect the pieces can have. It's a matter of preference, but I prefer absolute adherence to the strict rhythm in Bach keyboard pieces.

I'm not quite sure where you're hearing this; both pianists make quite liberal use of traditional rhythmic devices in bach playing--and rightly so, these are dance movements after all.

You have the technique and all the capability, man, I just think it was a tad superficial. I wouldn't be comparing you to Gould or Perahia unless you were on such an unbelievable technical level!

Your Brahms is quite exciting. Fantastic stuff.

I rated 99 on the forum level.

I'd say compared to the Bach greats yours ranks somewhere at around 80-85. I'd have to hear your entire Brahms 2nd, to know if comes close to Gilels-Jochum/Reiner (both magnificent and untouchable imho).

I'm a flea compared to Gilels; that recording with Reiner is a desert island disc for me.
BTW: The recording quality isn't commensurate with your talent. It really doesn't do your interpretation justice.


Whattagonnado.

koji (STSD)
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Sohcahtoa
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not talking about a fixed, universal rhythm needed in order to play English Suites (most of the instructions you find are, understandably, not Bach's anyway), just a pace and rhythm that the pianist creates himself and sticks to. The beautiful mathematical flow of ALL of the English Suites are upset by surprises or any diversion from the original "rhythm" you set up. It should flow from 1-6.

The rhythmic freedom (which remains consistent throughout) needed to play certain Baroque has to be planned and polished well in advance.

Just my personal preference.
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Thracozaag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sohcahtoa wrote:
I'm not talking about a fixed, universal rhythm needed in order to play English Suites (most of the instructions you find are, understandably, not Bach's anyway), just a pace and rhythm that the pianist creates himself and sticks to. The beautiful mathematical flow of ALL of the English Suites are upset by surprises or any diversion from the original "rhythm" you set up. It should flow from 1-6.

The rhythmic freedom (which remains consistent throughout) needed to play certain Baroque has to be planned and polished well in advance.

Just my personal preference.


I just find it curious that when it comes to Bach, all of the sudden, terms like "mathematical" and "calculation" arise. This leads to typewriter Bach, which I abhor.

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Philip Daniel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach was sober, intelligent, beautiful, and expressive. I feel that too much pedal was used; in Bach, there is no need for pedal, as the melodies can be easily played pseudo-cantabile without too much effort. I disagree with Sohcahtoa; I believe that the speeds you chose were "right" for the pieces you played. You have developed a very admirable sense of finger independence and flexibilty in your counterpoint (especially in the gigue) that I wish to emulate. I myself play Bach nearly every day, especially the Well-Tempered Clavier and the Partitas. I'm sure you've played Fugue #9 in E Major from Book II of the Well-Tempered Clavier--it's my favorite of all the fugues, since I like archaic, polyphonic stuff. Although every person who has heard my Bach interpretations think they are the best they've heard I know that is untrue. Your Bach is timeless and magnificent, proffesional and promising. For all the qualities in your Bach I rate it an overall 95. I did not listen to the Brahms; when I do, I will make a separate post of my reactions. I am not as close to Brahms as I am to Bach Wink.
Best Wishes,
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Chozart
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Brahms, though new to me, is really cool.
That first bravo you hear at the end would have been completely overshadowed by my "BRAVO!" had I been there Cool
Can't say much else for it, for I'm not that familiar enough with the work, and while I much appreciate and enjoy Brahms (among my favorite styles), I have nothing else to say for this performance other than another job well done. Very Happy
btw - not bad job to the orch overall.. some parts a bit strange, but alright Smile

Now, being a Bach fanatic, I can actually comment with some (more) justification (at least to myself) on the English Suites. ^_^

The first movement is really wonderfully executed.
Dang ol' Bach + good playing always makes me all like Crying or Very sad , yet ^_^ because it's played well.
There's a beautiful tone quality from that piano (combined with, of course, how it is played) that I often hear with professional Bach recordings, but haven't grown up listening to.
The sound is really nice - light & simple, while proposing intricate themes.

Pianos I've heard Bach performed on (well.. rarely do my friends play Bach without thinking it tedious Confused) have given deep, rich sounds (regardless of the piece).. and I'm used to it, too.. it's sort of given me a certain interpretation on Bach.
So I like hearing this sort of 'sound' as well, because - IMO - it has many pro's that I don't hear with the deep sound, as well as cons.

I'd have actually prefered a somewhat deeper sound in the second movements in some areas; nevertheless, it sounds beautiful still ^_^

Nice Gigue, too...
not my favorite part of the Suite, but it's nicely done.
Good base parts ^-^

All in all, terrific & meritorious performances Smile

however, I reserve my right not to vote.. and I've got my reasons.. Rolling Eyes
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Thracozaag
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the intelligent thoughts regarding the Bach...now you see why I choose not to perform him anymore in public, haha.

koji (STSD)
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PianistSk8er
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well done Koji, you weren't kidding when you told me you've been practicing too much lately. Wink

I've only had the time to listen to the Bach recordings so far, I will surely listen to the other later and comment accordingly.

For the Bach, I can only say that I am, as usual, very happy with what I'm hearing. I also find it gross to listen to someone playing Baroque music in a certain 'mechanical' or 'robotic' way.. I mean.. says who? It is up to the interpreters to decide how to play it. And I like it a lot more when it has feeling.. and I don't mean droopy slurs of pedal everywhere, but surely not mechanical. To conclude, you've done a great performance, 91 from me. Very Happy

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Philip Daniel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just completed listening to the Brahms. There is not much I really can say, except that there is a little bit to be desired in your performance--I feel that you were not "dynamic" enough at times, and, broadly speaking, there is a a need to bring out subtly hidden polyphonic lines in the complex virtuosic piano writing which is lacking in some of your interpretation--it is too Late Romantic for my tastes. I admire your mastery of pianistic technique and your sensitive expressivness--in a way at once full of yearning and playfullness, as much of Brahms' music is expressive of. The greatest pleasure came from the equilibrium between pianist and orchestra, however--the personal quality of the virtuoso in medias res with the orchestra. I'd rate your performance an 89, indeed one of the best I've heard of this particular movement. I am no fan of Brahms, so please pardon my lack of knowledge regarding his work.
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Sohcahtoa
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misunderstood me when I said "Mathematical". I think that If you play Bach at a rhythm or pace that you follow assiduously, you get to hear a subtle but very brilliant bigger picture: the piece as a whole is greater than the sum of it's parts - no matter how brilliantly those individual parts are played. This is the difference between good Bach and great Bach. Of course the greats also demonstrate their own unique style in this way!

This flowing, rhythmatic, Bach is in stark contrast from shallow and superficial "typewriter" Bach, as you called it.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone since it is more an intrinsic sense I have about the music. Since I haven't taken piano lessons/theory for more than a few months, I cannot describe what I mean with the same technical terms and language as people like Philip Daniel.

@Philip Daniel: I thought the orchestra was a tad weak compared to the soloist, actually.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU BASTARD!
ehe :'D...



wanna hear the whole Brahms Smile
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