Tempos for 24 Preludes

[johnlink]

Can anyone direct me to a source that would indicate what tempos Chopin played for any of the 24 Preludes?

Thank you,
John Link

[PJF]

Cortot's tempos are probably very close to what Chopin intended. Keep in mind, the correct tempo is the one that sounds the best to you and your audience, taking into account the skill and mood of the performer, the instrument and the acoustics of the performance environment.

[MindenBlues]

In the Henle Urtext I have, there are no tempi mentioned for the preludes. Even in the critical remark there is nothing stated about that. That means, if there are tempo markings in some score, they seem not to come from Chopin himself.
Even in the famous book from Eigeldinger "Chopin as seen by his pupils", what handles exclusively with primary sources, there are no hints regarding this, I think.

For prelude 17 in a flat major (Chopin played it even on his last performances), one of the most beautiful preludes for my taste, Chopin told a pupil that the strong deep 11 bass notes at the end reminds him of a sonor church clock ringing for the 11th hour. Since one of those bass notes come only every two bars, Chopin seemed to have played it pretty lively.

I agree on Peters opinion, that maybe Cortot came close to Chopins tempi, that means, pretty fast played. If you compare the tempi Chopin marked in his Etudes (but unfortunately for his Preludes), with the top players tempi, than Chopin seemed to play even faster.

[johnlink]

Cortot's tempos are probably very close to what Chopin intended.

What is the basis of your statement?

Keep in mind, the correct tempo is the one that sounds the best to you and your audience, taking into account the skill and mood of the performer, the instrument and the acoustics of the performance environment.

That's reasonable. According to Wagner, in "Wagner on Conducting", "The right comprehension of the Melos (Melody in all of its aspects) is the sole guide to the right tempo" and "...our conductors so frequently fail to find the right tempo because they are ignorant of singing." (pages 18 and 19 http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Conducting ... F8&s=books )

I recently sampled 15 collections of the 24 Preludes at iTunes and was amazed that many of the preludes (1, 3, 5, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 22, and 23, if I recall correctly) were played so fast by all the pianists that I am not able to hear the melody.

John Link

[johnlink]

In the Henle Urtext I have, there are no tempi mentioned for the preludes. Even in the critical remark there is nothing stated about that. That means, if there are tempo markings in some score, they seem not to come from Chopin himself.
Even in the famous book from Eigeldinger "Chopin as seen by his pupils", what handles exclusively with primary sources, there are no hints regarding this, I think.

What a wonderful book that is, but I don't remember any discussion of tempo. I'll have to look again. Unfortunately, while there is an index of names and an index of musical works, there is no index of subjects.

For prelude 17 in a flat major (Chopin played it even on his last performances), one of the most beautiful preludes for my taste, Chopin told a pupil that the strong deep 11 bass notes at the end reminds him of a sonor church clock ringing for the 11th hour. Since one of those bass notes come only every two bars, Chopin seemed to have played it pretty lively.

Your conclusion might be correct, except that Chopin was opposed to program music and so might have not felt the need to match the actual clock in tempo.

I agree on Peters opinion, that maybe Cortot came close to Chopins tempi, that means, pretty fast played.

Why do you agree?

John Link

[MindenBlues]

I agree on Peters opinion, that maybe Cortot came close to Chopins tempi, that means, pretty fast played.

Why do you agree?

John Link

Well, as I wrote already, there are original tempo markings from Chopin in his Etudes. They are VERY fast, even slightly faster than top recordings nowadays (e.g.Pollini and Perahia) here and there. It CAN be that this holds true not only for the Etudes, but too for his other works, like the preludes. Chopins Pleyel pianos were very light weighted and had short key depress ways. It was easier to play faster.
So only an ASSUMPTION, that Chopin played pretty fast (and Cortot plays the preludes very fast in my opinion too).

I recently sampled 15 collections of the 24 Preludes at iTunes and was amazed that many of the preludes (1, 3, 5, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 22, and 23, if I recall correctly) were played so fast by all the pianists that I am not able to hear the melody.
John Link

Oh, Prelude 3 - the melody is in right hand with long notes, the fast notes are in the left hand. One always should be able to hear the melody here. It is in fact an etude for the left hand (a very beautiful etude), I think.

[johnlink]

I agree on Peters opinion, that maybe Cortot came close to Chopins tempi, that means, pretty fast played.

Why do you agree?

John Link

Well, as I wrote already, there are original tempo markings from Chopin in his Etudes. They are VERY fast, even slightly faster than top recordings nowadays (e.g.Pollini and Perahia) here and there. It CAN be that this holds true not only for the Etudes, but too for his other works, like the preludes. Chopins Pleyel pianos were very light weighted and had short key depress ways. It was easier to play faster.
So only an ASSUMPTION, that Chopin played pretty fast (and Cortot plays the preludes very fast in my opinion too).

It is an assumption that I doubt, because I find it difficult to imagine that Chopin would play so quickly that the melody would be obscured.

Oh, Prelude 3 - the melody is in right hand with long notes, the fast notes are in the left hand. One always should be able to hear the melody here. It is in fact an etude for the left hand (a very beautiful etude), I think.

I agree that there is a melody in the right hand, but there is also one in the left, although you would never know that from listening to the speed demons. Cut the tempo in half, so that you follow Chopin's "Il faut chanter avec les doigts" with the left hand as well as the right, and you'll hear what I mean.

John Link

[PJF]

After a bit more thought, I realized that the tempos Chopin used do not apply to 21st century pianos. The decay of an 1830 Pleyel is nearly twice as fast as today's instrument. How this fact applies to the voice, I don't know.

That said, I return to my previous statement. "The correct tempo is the one that sounds the best to you and your audience, taking into account the skill and mood of the performer, the instrument and the acoustics of the performance environment." I think that's the right answer.

[MindenBlues]

Oh, Prelude 3 - the melody is in right hand with long notes, the fast notes are in the left hand. One always should be able to hear the melody here. It is in fact an etude for the left hand (a very beautiful etude), I think.

I agree that there is a melody in the right hand, but there is also one in the left, although you would never know that from listening to the speed demons. Cut the tempo in half, so that you follow Chopin's "Il faut chanter avec les doigts" with the left hand as well as the right, and you'll hear what I mean.

John Link

John, the right hand melody on prelude 3 comes out only at pretty fast speeds, otherwise the connection of the melody notes is not perceptible.

Chopin did compose not only for piano, more precise he composed only for pianists. That means he had the keyboard in mind while composing. Everything is very ergonomic. Also the left hand part of prelude 3. I did play that prelude 3 from memory, so I know every note. It is a bravura piece for left hand training in my opinion, so personally I have no doubt that Chopin played it pretty fast - without loosing his marvelous singing keytouch. Has nothing to do with speed demon playing or so!

However I agree fullhearted with Peter that the correct tempo is what sounds the best. That can and will of course be different from the light weighted 1835 Pleyel pianos to the heavy weighted nowaydays pianos, and VERY different to vocal/guitar/bass adaptations of course!

[PJF]

Yes, I would imagine that Chopin Preludes in song could go much slower, due to the relative lack of decay in the voice.

[johnmar78]

wooh, nice debate....

I should return to the team.

Well, from my opinion...I have been playing op10/1 form time to time, loops and loops. I have decided that faster does not mean better. But on the otherhands, too slow can be lack of motivating to the audience.

My conclusion are close to what PjF has mentioned. What sounds best for you....its the right tempo.
I would say as long as you can hear EACH notes you played with slight speed ajustment to the audience( musician?/church goers). As long as its sounds good. Its the right tempo.

Chopins piano was light touched indeed, therefore we can not compare his piano to modern piano; but the aim to bring out his melody and inner voice.
These days people try to out do each other by means of speed eg etude.
Thats fasters means just to SHOW OFF. but good on him.

I hope this makes sense.